Michael and Chris Berry are back for
The Mining Report's
second annual father-son interview in honor of Father's Day. While
they don't agree on everything, they are aligned on the importance
of disruptive discoveries to help companies succeed even in a
sideways market. Flexibility and selectivity are their long-term
strategies in any sector, from precious metals to commodities to
The Mining Report:
Do you think investing is a skill that is learned or inherited?
I suppose there's some sort of a gene for analytical ability, but
there's no substitute for real-world experience. While my father
taught at the Darden School at the University of Virginia, I
received a good grounding in theory-based finance and investing.
Being out in the investing world for the last 15 years, I've seen
what works and what doesn't compared to what you read in a
textbook. If the last few years have taught us anything, it's that
markets aren't as efficient as academic theory would have us
Mike, when did you first know that Chris had the knack for
When I realized that Chris was interested in what I was doing, I
sent him to see a good friend to talk to him. I wanted to stand
back. Chris came back and said this is what he wanted to do. We
have all heard Chris say he loves what he does now. If you love
what you're doing, you're going to put a lot of effort into it and
you will be successful.
I think it's more environmental than genetic. If you're in a
family where everybody's reading
The Wall Street Journal
all the time, it probably comes more naturally.
In 2000, I came up with the idea of discovery as a different
kind of investing discipline. Chris and I have worked together now
for four years, and he's adapted that into the idea of one of
disruptive discovery. This is more defining, and in the current
market, a lot more powerful. We reinforce each other's work. It's a
really good relationship in that we're in sync and yet we cover
different interests in the destructive or disruptive discovery
You recently changed the name of the publication you co-edit to
Disruptive Discoveries Journal
. Which industries are being disrupted by macro forces, and how can
A number of macro forces have combined to deliver compelling
challenges to the global economy. Globalization has increased trade
among countries and benefited many people through higher living
standards. The globalization of technology gives a farmer in an
emerging market access to the same amount of information that, say,
the president of the United States would have had 15 years ago.
These two forces are leveling the playing field between the East
and West. As a result, both challenges and opportunities are
presented. This means that as many more people live what I call
"commodity-intensive" lifestyles, we're starting to see living
standards converge. This has been one of the main factors in
stagnant real wage growth in the West in the past decade.
However, the confluence of globalization and technology has
begun to raise a number of issues for us in the West. One challenge
is an excess of labor. Hundreds of millions of people globally are
joining the middle class, which is flattening wage growth. China's
middle class is forecast to grow by 200 million in the coming
decades. Other countries like India, Indonesia and Mexico are
experiencing similar phenomena. Greater access to technology, for
example free online education through Coursera or edX, has
exacerbated this issue by allowing anyone with an Internet
connection to learn what a better life can be. This will continue
to have far-reaching consequences for us in the West as the global
labor pool expands and can grow at a relatively lower cost of
living. Technology, specifically disruptive technology like online
education, is simultaneously our best friend and worst enemy. A
number of industries are set to be upended, and herein lies the
We broadened our reach because to thrive in the commodities
markets of the future, investors will have to be much more
selective about the sectors, the companies and the commodities they
I look for companies anywhere along the value chain that have a
disruptive technology or unfair competitive advantage. Maybe it's a
deposit, maybe it's a technology. These companies offer the
opportunities in a global economy awash in labor and capacity.
Mike, which commodities could benefit from today's disruptive
Oil and natural gas come to mind first. Fertilizers and potable
water also will benefit. Mineral exploration and recovery will also
be revolutionized with new technology. There will be a revolution
in energy use, food production, clean mineral production and,
therefore, quality of life here and around the world.
It took a decade for hydraulic fracking to take hold, but now,
it has almost completely restructured the global geopolitics. In
the second quarter of 2014, the U.S. produced 8.4 million barrels
[8.4 MMbbl] of oil equivalent, the highest in 26 years. By 2016,
the U.S. will produce 12 MMbbl of oil a day and will become an
exporter of natural gas; it's just a matter of time. That's the
best, most recent example of a global disruptive discovery.
It's not about discovering a mine; it's about discovering a
technology. I talked recently with someone about plasma torch
technology for processing minerals. That technology is still very
early in its development, and many in the mining industry don't
believe in it, but it has the same potential as fracking has had to
oil and gas production to change the economics of the mining
industry and impact the geopolitics of the world.
Many of these technologies are costly. You've said that society
needs access to cheap commodities to sustain a high quality of
life. Many commodities are now being sold at below the price it
takes to produce them. That can't be sustainable. With these new
technologies, will prices catch up with the cost of production?
It takes time to perfect these disruptive discoveries. In the Eagle
Ford Shale, the cost of producing a barrel of oil is around $40.
The best the Saudis can do using traditional finding and recovery
technology is $45 or $50 a barrel. New exploration technologies and
recovery technologies in mining will dramatically reduce costs. So
the answer to your question is, yes.
Selling commodities below the cost of production is obviously not
sustainable. We've seen countless companies either mothball mines
or abandon projects altogether in recent months. However, every
commodity is different, and I think it's important to look
individually at the distinct supply-demand dynamic for each. As an
example, lithium and rare earth elements [REE] offer different
opportunities. Lumping them together and saying ALL energy metals
are bad bets now is patently false.
Take uranium, for example. By some accounts, 60% of the uranium
being produced today is produced below cost. That can't continue,
because companies have shareholders who invest based on the
capability of management teams to generate profits and cash flow.
You can only produce something at a loss for so long before you
lose the trust of the markets.
The strategy of major producers - Cameco Corp. (
), AREVA SA (
) and Paladin Energy Ltd. (
) - is to cut exploration, cut overhead expenses and put mines on
care and maintenance. This makes sense, and is the first step in
seeing supply and demand begin to equilibrate.
Yet, uranium is a critical component of our energy
infrastructure, and it will remain a critical component, despite
In an environment where the uranium spot price is $28/pound
[$28/lb] and the term price is $45/lb, you must find the companies
that can exist in low-price environments. Right now, that means
in-situ and near-term production plays in the western United States
and Kazakhstan. The Athabasca Basin has great grade, but that kind
of hard rock isn't economic right now, and won' be until we reach
much higher uranium prices.
If you want to invest in uranium right now, I would look at the
lowest-cost producers in the industry. Another strategy would be
investing in hard rock plays that aren't economic now, but will be
at higher uranium prices. I have been discussing this theme of
What are some of those low-cost plays that are preparing for
Two in-situ plays in Wyoming are
Uranerz Energy Corp. (
Ur-Energy Inc. (
. I'm still comfortable with them at $28/lb. They each have
off-take partners in place at higher prices, so their low-cost
production profiles allow them the flexibility to produce when
other companies in the uranium sector are unable to do so.
For the uranium sector to "turn," we need to see deals getting
done. I don't necessarily mean mergers and acquisitions. End-users
like utilities need to come back into the market and establish
long-term supply deals with uranium producers. We'll know uranium
has turned when we start seeing that happen more often.
The same is true of a number of commodities that are traded on a
"handshake" basis. I'm confident that we're at the bottom of this
cycle, although I'm not convinced that we're near a turn.
In last year's father-son interview, you were sharply divided on
the prospects for uranium. Mike, you were adamant that we should be
moving to thorium to avoid more Fukushimas. Do you still feel that
One of the great things about our relationship is that we don't
always agree, or disagree. We go back and forth. It's a very
healthy relationship, because you can avoid "drinking your own
bathwater." We're still divided on uranium long term.
Uranium is not the best nuclear fuel, thorium is. Thorium is
more plentiful and easier to store. The burnt material doesn't give
off much plutonium. Its byproducts decay faster and are safer.
The problem is that we spent billions of dollars building and
retrofitting uranium-based nuclear plants, as have the Chinese.
We're unlikely to move to thorium anytime soon. We'll probably have
green energy before we have thorium reactors, although both China
and India are working on them.
As to what Chris said about uranium not being ready for a turn,
I agree. I don't see a turn for two to five years. That's why we're
looking up the value chain for disruptive discovery investment
opportunities in technologies, as well as the natural resource
discoveries. In the nuclear space, small modular reactors provide a
disruptive technology. They are in their very early development
Chris, let's talk about lithium. Would Tesla Motor Inc.'s (TSLA)
plans to build a battery Gigafactory disrupt the lithium market in
a good way? If so, which junior lithium mining companies could
It could disrupt a number of commodities, not just lithium:
graphite, cobalt and nickel, for example. A lot of raw materials
and components go into the typical lithium-ion battery. If Elon
Musk's plan to produce 500,000 lithium-ion batteries by 2020 is
half accurate, he will need a lot more of everything. And remember,
Tesla isn't the only company in the battery business. LG Chem Ltd.
(LGCLF) is one of the world's largest battery producers. Johnson
Controls Inc. (JCI), Panasonic Corp. (PCRFY), BYD Company Ltd.
(BYDDF), GS Yuasa Corp. (GYUAF) and Hitachi Ltd. (HCBLF) are some
of the other players, not to mention the dozens of smaller niche
But, yes, with the Gigafactory Tesla wants to build, lithium is
front-and-center. There was a sense of optimism at the recent
Industrial Minerals Lithium Supply & Markets Conference.
Tesla's pronouncement breathed much-needed life into the lithium
space. Cobalt and graphite have regained investor interest as
If we're looking at additional sources of supply, we need to
find low-cost producers that can compete in an industry that is
really an oligopoly - [[SQM]], Rockwood Holdings Inc. (ROC), FMC
Corp. (FMC) and the Chinese.
Mike, are you as excited about lithium?
Yes, very much so, although I'm skeptical about Tesla's plans for
its Gigafactory. Battery technology has not yet found its
steady-state niche. I am looking for disruptive battery technology
today. You can't build a battery factory or a car factory to use
all those batteries until you're sure you're at the point of
Lithium-ion battery technology is clearly important. Whether or
not it uses graphite anodes is another issue. It's evolving. We may
or may not have the expected demand for lithium and graphite;
that's another issue.
I also want to comment on graphene, which is a one-atom thick
extract from graphite. In my view, disruptive graphene technology
is coming, but it is a decade or two away from serious cash flow
generation. It will definitely be a disruptive technology when it
You've emphasized that not all critical metals are alike. There has
been lots of volatility among the REEs. Could China's recent
announcement of its plan to tax REE producers and require
environmental protections be good for non-Chinese companies?
I hate to sound cynical, but probably not. Every quarter, China
makes an announcement about how it's going to change this or that.
I don't expect the pronouncements out of China to benefit
non-Chinese REE exploration and development plays in the near term.
Remember, this entire supply chain from mining to manufacture now
takes place almost exclusively in China. This has been in place for
years, and we can't expect to change this overnight. Trying to use
rulings from entities like the World Trade Organization to get
China to dismantle its supply chain in the name of "fairness" is a
wrong-headed strategy. Both the private and public sectors in
Western economies need to garner the political and economic will to
comprise a strategy that can compete with a dominant low-cost
Chinese production scenario.
I have a five-year view on the REE space outside of China. That
is how long I anticipate it will take an REE junior to achieve
We all know the challenges Molycorp Inc. (MCP) and Lynas Corp.
(LYC) have encountered. I think it's important to ask a company if
it will be able to produce a product that the market wants. Also
important is, will it be able to do so economically? There are, of
course, many other issues to consider, including mineralogy, but at
the end of the day, economics matters most.
An investor has to be very patient and have a long window to
make money in the REE junior space.
Mike, do you agree?
I certainly agree that the U.S. has given up on supply-chain
development. It takes billions of dollars and lots of time to build
a workable and economic supply chain. The Chinese have worked
pretty hard at that. They made mistakes, but they learned how to do
it. We need to be focused downstream, as well as upstream.
In 2011, my wife and I went out to see Molycorp on-site. I knew
as soon as we got there that it would not be a good trip. Everyone
was focused on the mining and not on the entire value chain. It's
not clear that Molycorp can make it.
Which juniors could make it?
Using that five-year window, I'd say
Tasman Metals Ltd. (TAS)
has a really good chance. Its deposit is in Sweden, a
mining-friendly jurisdiction. Its European location and proximity
to a number of technology and automotive manufacturers are
advantages. I visited the project a year ago, and Tasman continues
to de-risk its profile. My sense is that if there is a rare earth
company out there that has a good shot at an offtake or a strategic
agreement in the near term, it's Tasman.
Mike, you brought up the disruptive technology of shale fracking. I
T. Boone Pickens, who is very optimistic about the shale fracking
industry and its potential impact on the U.S. economy. What do you
think is the best way to get exposure to that sector: Is it the
juniors, or the majors that might take over the juniors? Is it the
services or the refineries?
I get my exposure through royalty investments. What I like about
the royalty play is that you end up buying the property and leasing
it back to "Star Wars" producers like
EOG Resources Inc. (EOG)
, which have the expertise at finding and lifting. Depending upon
the type of royalty, you get the first 20-25% of the oil that comes
out of the ground, and you get it every month. You have no drilling
or environmental risk. In today's low-yield market, everyone should
be seeking out royalty investments.
I think you can make money with investments like EOG and
Penn Virginia Corp. (PVA)
Freeport-McMoRan Copper & Gold Inc. (FCX)
just moved into offshore oil area pretty heavily.
Encana Corp. (ECA)
of Calgary just came down and invested in the Eagle Ford play. When
the Canadians come to the play, you know it must be considered
good. Some other names of smaller operators that are interesting
Carrizo Oil & Gas Inc. (CRZO)
Contango Oil & Gas Co. (MCF)
Chesapeake Energy Corp. (CHK)
. EOG is perhaps the best of the disruptive discovery operators in
the fracking business.
The Railroad Commission of Texas tells us that in the core areas
of the Eagle Ford shale, these fracked wells average 500,000
barrels of oil equivalent that can produce an economic life for up
to 50 years. The first five years of production is especially good,
and yield about 40% of the total. Given that there's no dividend
yield in the market today, the best bet, in my opinion, is
investing in a royalty stream.
Mike, you're going to give your biannual talk to the Federal
Reserve on the economy next week. What will you say?
The overriding issue now is the battle among the central banks of
the world trying to generate inflation, escape velocity growth and
avoid deflation or shrinking of the money supply and their own
I think the world is much more disinflationary or perhaps
deflationary than it has been since the Great Depression. The Fed
is printing a lot of money. Yes, it's tapering its quantitative
easing, but the real money supply in the real economy is not
growing. The Fed's money supply is. The Fed has $4.5 trillion of
bonds in its portfolio. The real question now is, "How does the Fed
raise interest rates without imploding the economy?"
The European Central Bank recently said it was worried about
deflation. It instituted a $100 billion program to buy bonds and
make loans. So the ECB is now embarking on its own quantitative
We don't have an economy of robust, sustainable growth. Since
1970, GDP growth has averaged 3.4% coming out of recessions. Here
we are 70 months down the road, and we can barely sustain 2%
growth. Without escape velocity growth, you cannot deal with the
amount of debt that was incurred back in 2000-2008. I'm worried
that we have three to five years of growth capped by the slow
deleveraging process we are in today. That will affect how quickly
the capital markets can turn and a new credit cycle evolves to
support needed economic growth.
The equity markets are much overvalued. I expect a correction. I
think we're facing two-to-five years of deleveraging. It's not an
optimistic presentation in the short term. Longer term, of course,
we will recover.
All of that underpins our disruptive discovery thesis. It's not a
viable strategy to hide your head in the sand and not participate
in these markets. Rather, you need to find those opportunities that
can provide above-average returns in what looks to be a very muted
growth profile over the next couple of years. You do this through
finding those opportunities that can produce an attractive product,
either through a disruptive force in their business model or
another element. Tesla has done this in the automotive business.
Uber [though privately held] has done this in the mass
transportation business. Netflix has done this in the streaming
Remember, there are two kinds of deflation. One comes from excess
supply and insufficient demand. That is part of what we're facing
now. For example, there is lots of supply of iron, aluminum and
copper, but the Chinese have scarfed it all up. Who knows when that
will come back and hit us on the head? That's bad deflation: excess
supply and stagnant demand. Prices fall, expectations are formed
and people start to save, because they can buy the washing machine
cheaper next month. As a result, growth spirals into a decline.
The other kind of deflation comes from disruptive discovery.
That's where new technological discoveries tend to replace labor or
at least cap labor's real disposable income. That's happening in
the labor market now. It is struggling to maintain growth in real
wages and get people back to work.
The U.S. announced the creation of 217,000 new jobs in May,
equal to the number of jobs lost in 2008. Everybody cheered. The
problem is there are 15 million more people in this country than in
2008. We still have tremendous excess and underproductive labor.
Labor is not being rewarded; productivity, through new discoveries,
is being rewarded.
We have both kinds of deflation right now, and we have to clear
them out. I just don't see anyone in Washington, D.C., being
willing to do what is needed to make that happen.
A lot of people turn to gold when things are disrupted. The gold
price is down from the beginning of the year. What do each of you
think of the prospects for gold and silver?
In terms of the real inflation rate, gold is going to be capped. I
think it will test $1,200/ounce [$1,200/oz], or maybe $1,100/oz.
Wall Street is arrayed against gold right now, and the futures
market is the tail that wags the dog in both gold and silver. At
$1,200/oz, we'd be buyers.
A lot of the producers - Newmont Mining Corp. (NEM), Barrick
Gold Corp. (ABX),
and AngloGold Ashanti Ltd. (AU) - are saying they can produce at
$980/oz or $1,000/oz. They've already written off billions of
dollars of reserves that have become uneconomic.
I suppose the good news, although it's not really good news, is
that exploration is stopping. This will also be disruptive. It's
very difficult to raise money for exploration now. The TSX Venture
Exchange will be cannibalized before this is over. There will be
very few new gold or silver mines coming on-stream. Some of the
mid-tier silver producers will have real problems as silver finds
We might have to wait one to three years, but at some point, we
will run out of mineable gold properties as a result of the demise
of exploration companies. I think gold and silver will find the
bottom when we start to see marginal costs equal to the price of
gold and silver. Then, there will be a bounce.
Chris, do you agree?
I still maintain that most commodities will go sideways for a
while. It is difficult to say how long this will last, but I can't
see many macro catalysts at all auguring for explosive demand in
the near term. You must find low-cost production or disruptive
In the precious metals sector, in particular, perception is
reality. If you're hearing a lot about disinflation or a lack of
inflation, you stop thinking about some of the traditional reasons
to buy and hold gold or juniors and producers. That's one of the
main reasons they've been pushed down hard and will probably stay
there for a while. The perception is that there is no inflation in
the economy and economic growth is now stable. The reality is quite
different if you've been to a grocery store or filled your car with
That doesn't mean gold might not explode to the upside, based on
world events in the short term. We saw what happened to gold when
Vladimir Putin started saber-rattling and invaded Ukraine. Gold hit
$1,380/oz, but fell once things calmed down. We are now seeing a
similar phenomenon as Iraq devolves into a civil war. I'm
unconvinced these singular events can push precious metals prices
dramatically higher in the near term.
You want to watch traditional factors, such as supply and demand
and exchange-traded funds inflows or outflows.
It's unfortunate that in the past 10 years, gold and silver have
turned into asset classes in and of themselves, and we've forgotten
their traditional roles as stores of value and insurance policies
against inflation. As a result, we've seen a lot more volatility
with gold, and even more with the price of silver.
In my mind, gold and silver have decoupled. Silver has a huge
industrial application; gold does not. With a mere 2% growth rate
in the world's economy, industrial uses will shrink until we can
get to 3-5% GDP growth.
There are a lot of silver investors out there. Some 245 million
ounces [245 Moz] of silver coins and bars were purchased in 2013 -
76% more than 2012 and triple the silver purchased by investors in
2009. When you add in jewelry and silverware purchases, almost 500
Moz silver were purchased in 2013. That does not include industrial
usage, investment only. Last year, we incurred a 113 Moz deficit in
Two years ago, the silver price averaged $35/oz; today, it is
$19/oz. Investors must seek companies that can sustain their silver
production. They have to be sure that companies can maintain their
properties. I think we will find a lot of great silver properties
that come free.
We see a lot of private equity players now. They're rolling up
properties for pennies on the dollar when they can. Will silver
turn? Yes. When will it turn? I don't know, probably a ways
Chris, in addition to being a son, you're also a father, which of
course, Mike, makes you a grandfather. Is there an investment in a
commodity or a stock that you could make now when your children are
young that would be worth enough 20 years from now to pay for their
I can't think of a single investment or a commodity. You can't
control financial markets or the performance of the economy. You
have to a have a flexible strategy and a plan in place to weather
these storms. Buy and hold is not the only strategy to employ, and
has been a losing strategy in recent years.
I focus on energy metals, and I have a thought process, a time
frame and a strategy for each one of them.
The convergence of lifestyles is a real and credible phenomenon.
It's not a parabolic boom; it's slow and steady, and it will
continue. We think that convergence only happens to the extent that
people can live more commodity-intensive, more affluent lifestyles.
If you're going to invest in the commodity world, whether it's
juniors or anywhere along the value chain, you need to have a
strategy, a plan and a philosophy that you stick to, but you have
to stay flexible enough to adapt when times change. It's not 2006
anymore, and you should not be investing as if it is.
The ability to adapt is probably the most important lesson that
I hope I can leave to my kids.
Mike, do you agree?
One of the things Kate and I did was to make sure that we put
stocks in trust for the kids. In the discovery sphere, landing on
one major discovery - I'm thinking a world-class Peñasquito, which
was one of our big early discoveries - can make you millions. These
also increase wealth for everyone. Not all of them work, but you
learn so much from every single discovery opportunity, disruptive
I think it is incumbent upon parents to teach their children to
understand the implications of disruptive discoveries. In terms of
a single investment that will put my grandchildren through college,
that's a question I would rephrase. What can I teach my
grandchildren to focus on as they approach college and life
The point I would make is the necessity for disruptive
discoveries in food production and healthcare. These are areas that
we are heavily involved in. Cancer technologies and therapies, stem
cell technology and medical device innovations, as well as
nutritional discoveries are of great interest to both of us.
[Editor's note: Click here to read Michael Berry's ideas on
life science investing
Thanks for your time and insights, and Happy Father's Day.
This interview was conducted by JT Long of
The Mining Report
served as a professor of investments at the Colgate Darden
Graduate School of Business Administration at the University of
Virginia, during which time he published a book,
Managing Investments: A Case Approach.
He was the Wheat First Professor of Investments at James
Madison University. He has managed small- and mid-cap value
portfolios for Heartland Advisors and Kemper Scudder. His
The Disruptive Discoveries Journal,
analyzes emerging geopolitical, technological and economic
trends. He travels the world with his son, Chris, looking for
discovery opportunities for his readers.
, with a lifelong interest in geopolitics and the financial
issues that emerge from these relationships, founded House
Mountain Partners in 2010. The firm focuses on the evolving
geopolitical relationship between emerging and developed
economies, the commodity space and junior mining and resource
stocks positioned to benefit from this phenomenon. Berry holds a
Master of Business Administration in finance with an
international focus from Fordham University, and a Bachelor of
Arts in international studies from the Virginia Military
1) JT Long conducted this interview for Streetwise Reports LLC,
The Gold Report, The Energy Report, The Life Sciences
The Mining Report,
and provides services to Streetwise Reports as an employee. She
owns, or her family owns, shares of the following companies
mentioned in this interview: None.
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3) Michael Berry: I was not paid by Streetwise Reports for
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3a ) Chris Berry: I was not paid by Streetwise Reports for
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are my own comments and opinions. I had the opportunity to review
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